| | Tags: | art, social | | Security: | | | Subject: | Jeffrey Catherine Jones... | | Time: | 11:40 am |
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| | ...Passed away yesterday. I hadn't heard who that was until today. Marvelous art. Fantastic! I definitely thought Jeffrey was a guy. Then I read people referring to him as a she. And some people phrasing everything in such a way as to not indicate gender at all. I looked at the website ( http://www.jeffreyjones-art.com/) and read through the autobiography. Well, the reason all that was is that Jeffrey was a guy until he was 50, then had a gender switch. Ahhh, that explained it. He felt he was a girl from age 4 or 5, but being born in 1944, it's not like such things were discussed or acknowledged. Especially in the American South. Reading through Jeffrey's autobiography, I came upon a part where art between men and women was discussed. It got me to thinking... I've been thinking a lot and have been putting out really charged, seemingly controversial posts lately. So sue me. I need to get my thoughts out. It doesn't hurt that I personally find the topics interesting and I really like hearing other thoughts on them. Well, here's the thing. I thought Jeffrey was a guy- because the art looked like a guy did it. There, I said it and I'm not going to take it back. Honestly, I'm kind of tired of people pretending there isn't a difference between men and women's art. It's as absurd as pretending there isn't a difference between men and women. There are plenty of differences! And they should be embraced. Not shunned, ignored, denied or valued as superior or inferior. Here's the thing. I'm gunna break it down real simple: Men are analytical. Women are emotional.It's true. Generally, I can look at a piece of art and tell you if a man or woman did it. It's not that I'm always right, but look... Don't believe me? Go to Deviantart, type in "robot" and look. Single out a technical drawing of a robot. Look who drew it. Dude or chick? It was a dude, wasn't it? ;) Here's the thing: Just because I said that, it doesn't mean that I'm saying women are BAD at drawing robots. Or that they *can't*. I'm sure if you sift through 100 technical depictions of robots, you'll eventually come across one done by a chick. Cool! But that's the exception, not the rule. You see it all the time. Guys draw and paint in this meticulous, calculated way. With a strong focus on structure. And details. Oh god, the details! I can't bring myself to CARE about doing that much detail on a make believe robot. Or a building. Or a car. And yet, a guy will tool around all day working out how that thing attaches to this other thing in his drawing. It's not that I don't care about details. It's that I have to be emotionally invested in the subject matter in order to be able to care to do details. I may be wrong, but I don't think a guy is *emotionally* attached to the car or building or robot he's drawing. But when I draw a wolf and I'm painting in every. single. hair. it's because I *care* about that wolf. And the drawing. And what people's perception of my drawing is. When I'm doing meticulous tack on a horse's bridle, it's because I am emotionally invested. When a woman is designing a wedding gown and is drawing every single bead and putting it into place- she cares about that dress. She cares a lot. That care and emotion in the piece shows through to the final. It's tangible. It's not a figment of your imagination. If you ignore it, you're ignoring the biggest part of the art. You can't just discount it. I see it right in front of me! So yeah, there's definitely a difference in art done by a guy or a girl. It's pretty plainly obvious to me, but because saying such a thing and pointing it out is taboo (I guess?), then I get a lot of flack for it when I bring it up. The thing is, I don't think it's a *bad* thing! I embrace it. I think it makes both things special. I don't value one piece over another based on what gender painted it, but I have to say, I am attracted more to artwork done by men. Dave Rapoza, Jason Chan, Brad Rigney. And yeah, Jeremy Jones. Yet, I show the stuff done by these guys to fellow girls and they're not impressed. They don't like it, they aren't drawn to it. I'm not going to speak for them, but I can only imagine it's because they don't have an emotional attachment to the rendering style or the subject matter. I find that interesting too. I always thought I had more of a guy's brain. I'm not extremely emotional. I tend to overanalyse things. I'm only just now learning how to create my art to represent emotional concepts. It's not to say I have gender dysphoria. Guys- don't try to suade me with hard statistics (made up ones are fine- see below :D). You'll be able to hear my eyes glazing over. I can't stand numbers and math. It's just I'm not your "typical" chick. Now, I'll state a caveat- I'm talking about representational art here. When you go abstract, that's a whole 'nother world. I can't really talk about it because I guess I'm in the camp of people who don't "get" it. I don't have hard stats on it, but I have a feeling there are probably more female abstract painters than male. Just as in the representational art field, there are more men than women, at least, more men than women that are that are represented in galleries. I was going to stop there, but my last point brought me to another line of thought. Look at DeviantArt. You'd think that 90% of the people there are women. And yet if you keep looking, if you check to see how many of those women are doing art professionally, I think you'll find that number becomes significantly, significantly smaller. Probably more like 15-25% of women do art professionally as opposed to those who do it as a hobby. I think that's interesting. I think the process of making art appeals more to the female emotional side. It's a way to express creativity and emotion, which is why I think so many women are drawn to it. Though if you look on the flip side- see how much art is done by men. Then check and see how many of those guys are pros. I think you'll find maybe 25-35% of guys do art, but those who do, probably 75-90% of them do it professionally. I'm going based on my "feel" in the art world. I have been on DeviantArt since it started about 10 years ago and I follow over 500 people personally on my account, along with a lot of groups with a lot of varied, random artists on there. I think that gives me a little room to talk about trends I've noticed, contemporary trends at least. Point being, I see that trend outside of art too. I have noticed even in female dominated pursuits like fashion, make up, hair and even horse riding, men are at the tippy top. It's like women aren't driven to be the best- just good enough. I say this AS a women and I say this because it reflects my own attitude. It also reflects reality, so I don't think I'm too far off the mark. It's not that I'm not competitive. If I join a competition, I WANT to win. I'll try really hard to win at that one event or project. But in the grand scheme of things, in my art, do I want to be THE BEST ARTIST? No! I have no desire to be the best in the field. I only desire to be the best *I* can be. I think that's what allows men to take the top positions, even in female dominated pursuits. Because men DO want to be the best. They have that drive that I can only describe as instinctual to get to the top of the pack or the leaderboard. Is *every* man this way? No! Of course not, but enough are that it forms a distinct trend that I find it intriguing to note. That's not to discredit women or their accomplishments or to even suggest that they are second rate. I can value both traits equally in both genders. Maybe that makes me weird or different or, hell- the exception, but I can find a place in my mind and my heart for both male and female work in the art world. Art done by a guy appeals to my brain, I'm excited by the rendering technique and mastery of anatomy and the technical precision. Art done by a women will tug at my heartstrings, make me emotionally invested in the work and care about the subject matter so much more- all because it *isn't* bogged down by technicalities, inane details and whatchamajigs. I wouldn't want to live in a world where I can't have both. So, hats off to you Jeffrey Catherine Jones for spurring my thought process and letting this topic loose! RIP | comments: Leave a comment     |
| | My friend Vantid and I frequently refer to "guy art" as angular and deliberate. Heavy handed lines that look like they weren't lightly sketched first, and really sharp edges. | | (Reply) (Thread) |
| Yeah, definitely. That matches people's perceptions of what a guy looks like too :)
And if you look at guy paintings, they're really precise and exact, almost as if no stroke is out of place. I mean, it could be, but they sort of have an attitude about them that every stroke was deliberate, not hesitant. Guys, I've found, are like that about language too. Men in Norway were a lot less shy about speaking English. Not to say they spoke it perfectly always, but they just plowed through it even if they make a mistake. Haha...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees a pattern! X3 | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Oh. I've noticed this for years, and it was discussed privately among the admins at Yerf. The short thumbnail comment was that Female artists. were good at expressions and character, but really bad at perspective, and environments. and Male artist were the opposite,with a dash of fiddly detail, as you saw. Both set were bad at lighting until inculcated.
IT became harder to discer the differences when the at was particularly toony, but with a few exampels one could pick out the gender with "feet" of all things, as well as expresions and occasionally "pointiness".
But yeah, none of it is a bad thing. I like both. Check my favorites.
As to the Hobby/ Career thing. Guys like to turn what they love to do as a job. and I think Ambition is a predominantly male trait. | | (Reply) (Thread) |
| Something I wanted to mention that was a bit of a tangent to my points was that there is a certain skill level involved before you can really tell the difference. You can't really see the trends I mentioned until the artist is at a certain well rounded skill level, which is the main reason why I don't see any "good" or "bad" around the topic of male vs female art, it's just *different*.
With well rounded skills of anatomy, lighting, composition and everything else all equivalent, I just find it fascinating that women tend to be more concerned with the subject matter and how the end viewer perceives or feels about the piece, even at a subconscious level (will they like it???). Whereas (I can guess), men tend to just hold up the piece to his peers and mainly assess it's skill level between himself and the others. Honestly, that's what I've been doing for a while. Acting more like a guy than a chick in my thinking about my art. I've been so focused on my art being *literally* "good enough" anatomy, lighting and elsewhere that I was missing the part of my art that had to also have an emotional connection to the viewer.
Guys obviously have emotions and do think about how the piece will impact it's viewer, it's just I think the internal dialogue and processes of how they go about it is different and I think it's not their *main* consideration once all is said and done.
As far as ambition, I don't think women lack ambition, it's just that it's split up differently. You could say women are more ambitious about having families than men are. Think about it this way, if a woman pursues a career at 100%, she can't then also pursue a family at 100%. There is no 200% capacity a human can reach, there has to be either a straight up division and separation aka not pursuing a career and having a family or not having a family and pursuing a career (guess which is the more popular with women) or you can split it. But even if you split it 50/50, you're doing both only at 50%. Growing up, my mom and dad both worked, so I couldn't go to horse riding lessons or do after school activities. However, I could go on field trips because my mom and dad could afford it. It's give and take. I don't begrudge any of it, but it is what it is.
It's a very interesting debate anyway. | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I think you can tell the difference earlier, at least from my experience as a MOD on Yerf. or even earlier, in the :Childrens art, the difference between gorls drawing princesses, and ponies, and Boys drawing war scenes monsters and superheroes. XD
But I think you are right, where the male paints something complex and details as a statement of "admire my skill.", whereas the female may be "share the mood portrayed.". But you "are" good, so the concentration on the "admire my skill" part has worked to yoru favor. Sure, try for the emotional connection, but fidn the balance where you are. not where you "should be".
I think it's only because i was in animation that I pay attention to facial expression, and had gron up with dogs that i "know" their expressions to that makes the Lupines compelling. Find the balance i suppose.
Scott
Scott | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| There's definitely a difference in subject matter! Too true :)
And yeah, I think there needs to be a balance. It's probably one of the biggest hurdles of my art career, to find that balance. I think the first step is to be more aware of yourself and your thinking. I had no idea I was forgoing the emotional process in my art until I talked it through with a friend. Then I had a lightbulb dingdingding moment. Even now, writing this post, I didn't realise my lack of emotional impact in the piece was probably due to my more dude-sided thought tendencies. Also, this will help me when I'm showing my art to someone as to how to account for their critique. If one side says that the anatomy, lighting, ect are good and the other says the emotional impact is there, then I've struck on a winner :D
Good advice, to be sure ;) | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I also didn't realize that the artist referred to above was that jeff Jones. I was aware of his work from the old old days, and was just one of those folks who's art you saw at the omic racks, appreciated, bought and such. Ah well it's a surprise.
Scott | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | *nods* Yeah, I saw a tweet about his passing and that he was an artist and I was curious because I hadn't heard the name before. The whole topic cropped up after viewing more about Jeff. Jeff might be the perfect example of what I'm speaking about- I'm going to study the work before and after the gender change and I'm super curious if there was a major style shift? | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| My first, knee-jerk reaction when I first started reading was, "NO WAY. GUYS AND GIRLS CAN MAKE THE SAME ART," but that's such a PC, 'everyone is equal' way of looking at things that simply isn't true. Men and women ARE different, and pretending everyone is 100% the same is a pretty naive way of looking at things.
That said, I'm not saying any one gender is better than the other, just that, as you saw, there are general differences between us when it comes to art.
Ancient cultured recognized the analytical/emotional differences, too. Does that mean you can't have a female physicist or a male babysitter? No way! But on the whole, genders tend to lean in certain directions.
That said, I often get people who call me "dude" or "man" on DA, not realizing I'm a chick :3 It doesn't bother me, though! | | (Reply) (Thread) |
| Something I tend to tell people is that "Equal doesn't mean the *same*!" Too many people get the two confused. Our money system is a perfect illustration of how two things are so completely different. You mean this house equals this amount of money? But that thing is a place to live and that one is a piece of paper! ;)
Right, it was never my intension to say that one group makes *better* art than another, only that it is *different* and I was trying to celebrate those differences. I hope I got that across...!
And exactly! I'm the biggest contradiction to ever have a pair of ovaries! Whaaaat? You mean you hate kids, love VW Bugs, want to be a falconer AND you actually like corsets, tea parties, pink things and baby animals? What kind of FREAK are you?!? I think I only concentrate on generalities so much in a possibly selfish attempt to show myself how weird and "special" I am XD Derp.
That last paragraph probably just killed any credibility that I tried to accrue with this post, but my hope is that people can read this, smile, nod and realise- people are different. But different doesn't mean *bad* ;)
Edited at 2011-05-19 08:31 pm (UTC) | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| hmm. You raise valid points, but I will have to disagree with you on most of them.
| | (Reply) (Thread) |
| I have to ask-do you personally disagree or disagree in a generalised way?
I've found men and women's responses to my post really interesting. Quite a few women have had your exact response. I'm wondering if it's because they've been personally discriminated against based on their gender. Out of what I know of the people who have disagreed, I suspect this, but I don't know for sure.
So far all the men have been, "Yeah, I totally see that and agree with you." It seems as though this journal post has been an interesting experiment more than anything else! | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| Foremost in a personal way, but also generally.
I find your cited examples a bit too narrow (and in art it's very easy to focus on a set group/genre); but I can why you bring up the examples and why you have this viewpoint in your post. | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| No worries :) I was just curious.
I can only speak from my experience, so if my experience is a bit narrow, I have to just say it's all I know for the moment. The things I've said are based on what I've seen firsthand. Sometimes I think personal experiences are discounted too easily just because there isn't a lot of empirical data surrounding it. I get why that's important, but I like listening to people's firsthand accounts before listening to statistics and the things I've seen and then pointed out are those accounts. I didn't try to delve too much into *why* things were the way I saw them, only pointing out the patterns I've been noticing for a while now. | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| See, I much prefer empirical data first to form an overall idea of trends then delve into first hand accounts.
l always take statistics over word of mouth, but that's me, personally.
There's really no wrong way, it's just as long as you agree to disagree. :D | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| I'll agree with you that I can't agree with most, if any of these points. Also as a sidenote: people who've had gender reassignment surgery have their bodily gender fixed to match their "true" gender. This is why when referring to someone who's had such surgery, you always refer to them as the gender they are reassigned to. In Jeff Jones's case, the appropriate term is "she" regardles of what year of her existence (pre- or post surgery) is being disgussed.
Sorry, just a pet peeve with these things. :) | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
| | I must have missed a pronoun somewhere.I try not to use pronouns at all, for fear of stepping on toes one way or the other. I feel for people though, since I'm so atypical myself, I could only imagine if I was even moreso to the point of my body not aligning up with my mind and how much that'd suck. | | (Reply) (Parent) (Thread) |
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